saginaw m1 carbine markings

The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. There is no bayonet lug. The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition. Some people estimate a carbine's date of manufacture by adding the quantities manufactured month to month annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. General Motors Steering Gear Division. The elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks. IP and S'G' mixed. The sling well is marked RSG which was used bySaginaw SG, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw Gear(page 108 109). A. An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. We get the FFL from your store others make you find it, copy it, and fax it. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:The rifle has a canvas sling attached. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 3 43 and P. This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. Make:Saginaw SG. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local This resulted in an unknown number of "presentation" carbines possibly having the same serial number as the earlier Engineering carbines. Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. Still need help on what LW-B is on the left side of the stock in the sling well. After WWII Birch became much more common. A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. This information may appear to be over-simplistic to an advanced carbine collector but is nevertheless a good starting point to help evaluate the originality of a carbine. The one and only finish approved for use on the wood of the Caliber .30 Carbine was raw linseed oil. Make: Saginaw SG. serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks. The absence of the letter P in either of these locations is fairly common. Rangemasters are here to answer all your questions about our products or process. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. No import markings. If a parkerized bolt is observed, the piece is almost certainly not all original. It is possible you have an S'G' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod. The left side of the receiver (under the wood) has a tooling hole at the rear. Another word of caution is that brand new reproduction carbine stocks have been produced within the past couple of years. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. There is grease residue on the receiver. then allowed to dry. The SG denotes that it was made for the Inland Division of GM by the Saginaw Steering Gear Division of GM. Markings:There is no visible import mark. The metal shows scrapes, scratches, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. They were located in different cities. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it If a stock has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood but is absent the cutout for the Skip to the beginning of the images gallery, 73 Plank Ave Paoli, Both were Divisions of General Motors but were located in different cities. In addition, when the carbines were overhauled, the initials of the ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. The magazine shows scrapes, thin scratches, and discoloration from oxidation. Excellent overall condition. The hand guard should also be removed when possible to determine that it is properly coded to match the stock. of 0.5. ): B [circled] (I've seen some cases of 100 that were marked Winchester, but packed with these "B" magazines-- could they be a subcontract from Bridgeport?) Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. Location: Upwind of the Giant Plaster Lemon. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. own to figure out what you want. The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre The bottom of the grip is marked with a circled P proof. In all, more than 6.5 million M1 Carbines were produced between September 1941 and August 1945, making it one of the most prolific arms of World War II. American Black Walnut had a long history of The barrel flat is marked with a flaming bomb. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select They should not be altered or fired. The receiver, bolt, and trigger group have been refinished. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. These sold for around $1.00 to $1.75 retail (new in wrapper) before the U.S. (September, 1994) magazine ban, and even less by the case. They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. There is fouling and intermittent light erosion in the grooves. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where There was no requirement as to using the serial numbers in order. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the Barrel Date: September, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. Underwood had receivers in various stages of completion left over when their contract ended. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. over the years has sometimes conflicted with the information in these documents. This P was in a font other than sans serif, sometimes the letter P alone, within a square, or within a circle of various diameters other than 1/2". The M2 stocks were often used as replacement stocks for the M1's. More pics on my later response. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Here is one for you. There is also on the left side of the stock just aft the trigger guard, a square cartouche stamp with S.A. inside the square and a C stamped inside the square below the S.A. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for M1 Carbine, Buttplate I believe to be for Saginaw and Inland. Bolt is parkerized. The M1 Carbine was widely issued to U.S. Military Forces which numbered over 16 million during WWII. Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. Get Guns.com offers and news!! The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. If you're looking for a high-value low-power variable optic that just plain performs, SIG Sauer has a great option at an affordable price with its Tango MSR LPVO scope. C+B I.I.P. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . How much is a CMP Garand worth? A M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average price of $2,024.47 new and $1,615.82 used . How much is an M1 Garand in 2020? M1C Garand Sniper Model M2 selector switch, it was a type III stock manufactured by Winchester or Inland prior to For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. We buy and sell collectible firearms and militaria ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2. Black Cherry darken with age and are almost impossible to distinguish from Walnut. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. had passed inspection. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. A few of the manufacturers used subcontractors to manufacture their receivers. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? To separate the production of each plant the prime symbol () was marked after the SG on the receivers of the Grand Rapids carbines. There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. The letters were followed by Most of our products are unique. Barrel Date: March, 1943 Caliber: .30 Carbine Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine Markings: Unfortunately, after the weapon has changed hands one or two times, this knowledge is often lost forever, so any carbine seen today that is purported to be all original must be scrutinized very closely. SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. If a receiver has its original barrel and the What are you basing your question on? Military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever. A M1 with high wood is going to bring a high price. Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. organized, dont tell you a lot about what youre buying, and leave you on your Everything Stamper G.S. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' Good luck. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the M1 There is minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the receiver. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return. found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). The serial number would make it an early one too. the store. Forgeries are a serious concern for collectors. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? Model:M1 Carbine. barrel channel (bottom), Thinner wood along the right side adjacent the slide on the earlier stocks (top) The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. A few stock and/or carbine restoration There is a difference. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. Free shipping for many products! A total of over 6.1 million M1 carbines of various models were manufactured, making it the most produced small arm for the American military during World War II (compared with Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin-Pedersen in Grand Rapids. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation Shortages were common Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. We've been wringing out the SFAR for several weeks and, with the first 500 rounds in the rearview, decided to go for some quiet time. Are you sure it is a Saginaw? U.S. Instead of buying a gun thats The one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil. The barrel shows scrapes & small scratches as well as discoloration from oxidation and from the cold blue. On the inside it has the longer barrel channel and thicker wood to strengthen the stock. Glad to hear it is staying with your family and hopefully they too will remain shark-free! Walnut, Birch, and Cherry stocks were placed in raw linseed oil for a period of time, 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Most everything can be easily bought online these days. Inland Mfg - Engineering & Presentation Gifts. Model: M1 Carbine. What does a 10,000 dollar insulator look like? The M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII. That's a beauty! The hammer is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 89). Therefore, if any other carbine has this type of barrel band, it is not all original. The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 1872994. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked IRWIN-PEDERSON / 1767065. Most websites are poorly Keep in mind, U.S. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. There has to be either a period or apostrophe after each letter of the SG on the receiver heel. The thin high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived as a weak point. were available. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). Rather than assume the documents were followed to the letter, the serial numbers in tables C-F are presented with the lowest and highest reported to date. fire carbines like the M2's. This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. The M2 Carbine had a selective fire capability i.e. full auto. Neither the M1 Rifle or the M1 Carbine had a selective fire capability. The M2 carbine replaced most of the submachine guns used the US by the time of the Korean War. marked: JM, Amco, MMQ,J.M.Q. Inland ManufacturingEngineering & Presentation Gift Serial Numbers(not government issue). Documents found in the past have identified several prime contractors who assigned subsets of their serial numbers to their subcontractor(s). been observed but are uncommon. Heck I should take some photos later. The most prominent marks are on the handguard. Is it SAGINAW S.G. or SAGINAW S'G'? Serial The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments This website intentionally omits the information on which manufacturer used which inspection marks, crossed cannons, their size, and their spatial relationship to one another. contact us using the forum. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. Any completed Irwin-Pederson rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG after they took over the contract. Receiver or barrel or? I bought it a few years ago from another Calguns member. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. for use with a select fire mechanism. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. Saginaw or Saginaw'. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have You certain the receiver is S'G'? Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. Four of the prime contractors did not have the ability To get better and faster responses and opinions. They didn't come any other way--period. The smooth push button safety is marked E-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 95 & 185). Mechanics:The action functions correctly. My Saginaw serial 332xxxx also doesn't have any dots, just SAGINAW SG. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Legacy Collectibles strives to provide quality investment-grade military collectibles to an appreciative public. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. Thank you. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. Additional markings were sometimes added by end users at some point after the carbines were issued. It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. A few very late stocks used with the M2 carbine are characterized by a very prominent bulge on the bottom of the forend. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. They are a specialty that It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. This change was not implemented in conjunction with the longer barrel channel Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. Most of these marks are light or small. But for some reason, buying a gun online can That's peDersen with a "D", by the way. Ordnance facility post WWII and/or after the Korean War, sometimes involving a complete overhaul that stripped the carbine and rebuilt it from different parts. due to a lack of original documentation. The stock was also replaced and has no proof markings. designated it as a replacement. Irwin-Pedersendid not produce barrels. G.S. due to a lack of original documentation. The stocks were also stamped with code markings which are normally found inside of the sling recess on the left side. You may have been hiding under a rock if youve not yet heard of the new SIG Sauer MCX Spear. The bore shows an M.E. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). I've had this M1 Carbine for about 20-years. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. customers to the absolute best of our abilities. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. The best way to ensure an item is yours is to purchase it directly off the website. There are 2 separate Saginaw Gear manufacturers. SOLD - Factory Chrome Walther PPK - Rare. Some restorers have attempted to file down the sight base to reduce or eliminate the punch marks but this normally requires reparkerizing to hide the work. 3 3/16" (approx.) Overall, the gun is in nice condition. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. of the barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16" to 4 1/16" to strengthen the wood in the area of the barrel band. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. I have a high wood Rockola on my early IP. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work. The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive.

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